Zahada letu KAL007 ...

[Peter DeSnek]

Nárazníkové pásmo první linie PVOS proti náletům z Aljašky, ponorkové základny a základny balistických střel a strategických bombardérů ti přijdou nedostatečně důležité?

Navíc Sachalin je místo o které se Rusko a Japonsko dohaduje dodnes takže už jen fakt že Japonci by jej rádi měli pro sebe je dostatečným důvodem pro zvýšení ostrahy.

Ale jo tohle je jasne ... Ale stejne ..
Ted jsem nasel EN stranku ohledne KAL007 http://www.aviastar.org/air/747/kale_1.html a zde podle EN transkripce pilot uvadi, ze letadlo letelo s plnym navigacnim osvetlenim a blikanim majaku. Presto dostal rozkaz ho sundat.

Komu verit ... je to vazne jak 11.9.2001 ...

[Raptor]

Řeknu ti to takhle-byl 400km od letové trasy(mimochodem pokud by to byl skutečně kufr, aspiroval by na zápis do Guinnesovy knihy rekordů)?Byl.Poslechl výzvu k následování (pokusy jej kontaktovat prováděli jak pozemní řídící tak i posádky stíhaček)?Neposlechl.Tohle se chápe minimálně jako porušení platných dohod o ŘLP a v případě že navíc vletí do oblasti, kterou hlídají vojáci jako chráněné pásmo (vem si letoun, běž se proletět nad Dukovany a uvidíš ten tanec) tak je celkem nepodstatné zda to byla 747 nebo zatoulaná F-15 a stíhači mají povinnost letoun buď po dobrém zadržet nebo v konečné fázi sestřelit.Jakákoli další diskuse je potom nepřípustná.

[PantherG]

Ëлки-палки..... sakra chlapi neblbnite.....člověk(čert) musí na šichtu,přijde domů a co??? Čtyři stránky další výživné kaše

Jinak ke "Kosákovi"...o nm je známo,že než se zvedne z ranveje,tak z něj palivo cáká jak z cedníku

Pro takovou mašinu u nás využití nevidím Leda jako exponát na zemi....

[Peter DeSnek]

Ëлки-палки..... sakra chlapi neblbnite.....člověk(čert) musí na šichtu,přijde domů a co??? Čtyři stránky další výživné kaše

No mozna by stalo za to na KAL007 udelat zvlast chlivecek ...

Jinak ke "Kosákovi"...o nm je známo,že než se zvedne z ranveje,tak z něj palivo cáká jak z cedníku

Pro takovou mašinu u nás využití nevidím Leda jako exponát na zemi....

No mash prafdu, pokud Kosak ulitl z hnizda, tak jedine vystavit jako uspech ...

[Tango]

Před časem jsem trochu kolem KAL007 trochu sondoval, jsou i další fakta a dohady:
- nalezené trosky byly dle popisků vojenské, nikoliv civilní
- bylo jich nalezeno více než na jedno letadlo
- trosky později Jelcin prodal amíkům
- podle všeho došlo nad Sachalinem k regulérní letecké bitvě
- KAL007 ve finále sundali raketou Japonci

Jj, přesně tohle vyplývá z té knížky Michela Bruna.

Přidám bod 10)Nikdy nebyl nalezen vrak ani těla posádky a cestujících.

ad 10) Drobné trosky byly nalezeny na pláži na západě ostrova Hokaido - asi 300km jižně od místa údajného sestřelu a to proti směru mořského proudu!

A aby toho nebylo málo tak přidám jeden bod:
12) Proč Osipov na tiskovce řekl, že "operátor mu uzamkl cíl", když údajně letěl v jednomístném Su-15??
Možné vysvětlení: Na základně Jelizovo na Kamčatce byl tehdy stíhací pluk, čerstvě operační s MiGy-31 (myslím že to byl 865. IAP, ale možná se pletu).

[Raptor]

ad 12)Na MiG-31 by tohle asi jen těžko sedělo.Podle toho co jsem se dočetl na webu a v knize Osipovič letěl téměř 30 minut v těsné blízkosti KAL007 přičemž několikrát se pokusil výstražnou palbou odvrátit letoun ze současního kursu a donutit jej k přistání na Sachalinu.Protože střílel na malou vzdálenost, těžko by použil střely R-33 pro které by uzamknutí palubního operátora potřeboval ale spíše by střílel R-60, které jak známo jsou IR a navedení od operátora nepotřebují.Jako vysvětlení bych spíše navrhnul nepřímou střelbu s navedením střely na cíl zaměřený pozemním radiolokátorem (R-40 by to měla umožňovat).Na druhou stranu zůstává problém čím byl letou vlastně zasažen a jak se zřítil

A přidáme 13)Není podezřelé že celá akce okolo KAL007 se "náhodou" udále v den kdy se na Kamčatce očekával test nové ICBM RT-2PM Topol (SS-25)?

Naposledy upravil Raptor dne 10 zář 2008, 10:49, celkově upraveno 1

[Raptor]

Jinak co se týče trosek, tak je zajímavé že nikdy nebyly nalezeny větší fragmenty jako třeba motory, podvozek nebo větší části trupu (jak ukazují statistiky leteckých katastrof,tyhle kusy obvykle přežijí pohromadě a dají se také kompaktně vytáhnout).Na druhou stranu ale zůstává otázkou čím byl letoun vlastně zasažen a jak se zřítil.Podle některých zdrojů po zásahu ještě cca 12 minut letěl a posádka jej dokonce řídila a pravděpodobně se pokusila o nouzové přistání!Proto je nanejvíš podezřelé že jak nalezené trosky tak i sověty poskytnutá informaco hovoří o největší části vraku velké necelý metr čtvereční což by odpovídalo spíše vzdušné explozi.Na tu by ale jen těžko měla sílu PLŘS nesená na letounech Su-15 nebo MiG-31.Pokud by explodovaly nádrže, letoun by musel být poškozen natolik že by posádka nejen zaznamenala požár ale navíc by se uchoval i záznam o zvýšení teploty a požáru na černých skříňkách předaných ruskem v lednu 1993-na nich je ale jen hlášení o ztrátě tlaku v kabině cestujících což značí zásah trupu střepinami nebo spíše kontaktní zásah první střelou (druhá střela pravdpodobně zasáhla pravou VOP nebo její řízení-letoun po zásahu začal prudce stoupat a nastoupal necelých 8500ft než jej posádka zvládla a ustálila na předchozí letové hladině) -ovšem ani jednoho ze dvou zásahů si posádka nevšimla ani formou otřesů.Celé to spíš působí tak že letoun po oněch dvanácti minutách někdo něčím dorazil a to "něco" muselo být pěkně silné.

[Anton]

Má někdo prosím tu knižku?? Myslím Drama nad Sachalinem? Bylo by možno si ji půjčit?? Jinak musím do MK.., kamž se mi nechce.

A teď k té EF-111A

Tohle je text Johna Keppela volně přístupný na netu:

KAL Flight 007
An Article by John Keppel,

based on Incident at Sakhalin: The true Mission of KAL Flight 007
by Michel Brun, Four Walls Eight Windows Publishing, NY, NY
available from Publishers West or by calling 1-800-626-4848

There are several reasons why the public should not accept the "case closed" verdict on the 1983 Korean Air Llines Flight 007 disaster which the United States Government has been seeking for more than a dozen years to impose.

Two hundred and sixty-nine civilians and thirty or more U.S. Air Force and Navy servicemen lost their lives in a wholly unnecessary and improper U.S. intelligence and provocation operation. In fairness to the dead and the next-of-kin, the circumstances of their deaths should be made clear. The integrity of U.S. law is also at stake in this respect.
In the incident the world came closer to World War III than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis. If similar dangerous mistakes are to be avoided in the future, it is essential that the lessons of the KAL 007 case be learned. There is by now a large body of new evidence, all of it accessible and much of it easily verifiable, which should be examined by a Congressional investigation or one by a Special Prosecutor.

Much of it is contained in Incident at Sakhalin: The True Mission of KAL Flight 007 by Michel Brun, a French aviation expert. In his book, Brun shows why the official story of what happened to the Korean airliner is wrong in virtually every detail. As well as presenting the new evidence the book tells the story of how he got it. It includes accounts of his exhaustive and successful searches of the beaches of Japan for debris from the airliner far to the south of where the official version of events says it was shot down.

What we were told at the time of the KAL 007 disaster (August 31, 1983) was essentially the same as the government asks us to believe or, more precisely, to accept without contest, today. According to this "official truth," the Korean airliner, bound for Seoul from New York via Anchorage, went off course accidentally and unwittingly, alone overflew Soviet territory at the Kamchatka Peninsula and Sakhalin Island, alone was intercepted by Soviet fighters over Sakhalin Island, and alone was shot down and crashed into the sea to its west.

Over more than ten years of investigation, Michel Brun has collected and analyzed evidence which indicates

* that KAL 007's off course flight was intentional
* that when the Korean airliner approached Sakhalin Island, so too did a number of U.S. military aircraft some of which had already overflown the Kamchatka Peninsula
* that when a number of them entered Soviet territorial airspace at Sakhalin, a more than two hour air battle was initiated in which some ten U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy aircraft were shot down with the loss of at least thirty U.S. servicemen
* that KAL007 itself appears not to have overflown either Kamchatka or Sakhalin but passed through the Straits just the south of that Soviet island, flew south over the Sea of Japan for at least 45 minutes
* and was then destroyed off Honshu by means and for reasons which remain to be established


Incident at Sakhalin was published by Four Walls Eight Windows in New York. Your bookstore may have it. If it does not, the store can obtain it from Publishers West, or you can order it by calling 1-800-626-4848.

If you believe that the case requires a rigorous and objective public investigation, please say so to your representatives in Congress. If you send me, John Keppel, by email at keppel@snet.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, (not applicable now) copies of letters to your representatives in Congress, we may be able to cite a cumulative tally of letters calling for an investigation.

If you have unclassified information on the events at the time of the disaster or concerning the cover-up, please send it to me by e-mail. You will find an account of my involvement in the case in my preface to the book and in Michel Brun's text. I will pass on any information sent me to the author and the publisher, unless for some reason you tell me not to.

If you have information which you think may be restricted by classification or by an NSA or other non-disclosure oath, please ask your Congressional Representative or a lawyer how it can be brought to bear on US Government policy. If you wish the name of a lawyer qualified to offer such advice and prepared in this instance to do so without charge, I will give you one.

From the first there was evidence in plain sight that most, probably all of the assertions of the official story as to what happened to the Korean airliner were not true.

The initial US and Japanese announcements of the disaster (Secretary Shultz's and that of the Japan Defense Agency) cleary referred to two different interceptions and shootdowns, more if you look at the Japanese statement carefully.

The first substantive Soviet statement also indicated not a single incursion into Sakhalin airspace and a single shootdown but several.

The explanation offered by Nikolai Ogarkov, the Soviet Chief of Staff, in his September 9, 1983 press conference was treated by the United States as an admission that the Soviets had shot down the airliner. But Ogarkov's statement, like virtually all subsequent Soviet and Russian statements on the destruction of KAL 007, was ambiguous. It was only superficially in line with the US on the position and contained contradictory elements, no doubt intended as flags for careful observers.

In the light of a previously published Soviet radar map, Ogarkov's account of events clearly contained elements taken from two different interceptions and shootdowns. Even more jarring, it cited a time (quoted in Sakhalin time) a full hour after the Korean airliner had left the area.

From debris and oceanographic evidence it was apparent soon after the incident, as the Japanese admiral in charge of the search by the Japanese Maritime Safety Agency (Coast Guard) indicated, that the Korean airliner could not have crashed where the massive search for it was being conducted. he said that if floating debris from the airline did not show up soon in the search area, they would have to conclude that it had not crashed there.

What made all this hard for most of us (but not Brun) to understand at the time was the extent to which we were hypnotized by the Reagan Administration's false assertions and the extent to which it escalated its rhetoric in support of them, eg, the alleged (but non-existent) Soviet shooting down of the airliner was "a crime against humanity." We were also bemused by the fact that the other governments involved (Russia, Japan, and the Republic of Korea), each for its own reasons, went along, on the surface at least, with the US story.

In late 1992, however, the cover story threatened to come apart due to United States pressure on Russia to make its endorsement of it more explicit and to Yeltsin's ill-coordinated response to it. To repair the situation the United States, Russia, Japan, and the Republic of Korea agreed to ask the International Civil Aviation Organization to reopen its investigation. In this connection Russia gave the ICAO black box data, allegedly from KAL 007, which even cursory examination should have told anyone who looked, were intentionally misleading.

The digital flight data recorder tape shows that the aircraft carrying the DFDR transitted on five radios sumultaneously, whereas KAL 007 was able to transmit only on three simultaneously.

The landing and taxi sequence of the aircraft carrying the DFDR on landing in Alaska does not fit the layout of Anchorage International Airport, at which KAL 007 arrived after its flight from New York.

Examination of the data registered on the DFDR tape shows a take-off and climb sequence in Alaska different from the KAL 007 sequence recorded by the Tower at Anchorage International Airport.

The digital flight data recorder tape contains recordings lasting 27 hours, whereas the DFDR tape aboard KAL 007 could physically have contained no more than 24 hours 48 minutes of recording.

The DFDR tape which the ICAO examined shows that the aircraft followed a constant magnetic heading of 245 degrees. That would have taken it over Sapporo on southern Hokkaido rather than over Sakhalin, where the report says KAL 007 was shot down.

The cockpit voice recorder tape examined by the ICAO in 1993 carries the end of the 18:27 GMT transmission by KAL 007 as "descending to one zero thousand." The copy of the Air Traffic Control recording made at Narita Airport and given to the Japanese Diet in 1985 by Premier Nakasone had the end of the same transmission as "blood bath, really bad."

The digital flight data recorder tape must have come from another aircraft almost certainly one flying a simulation of KAL 007's flight, after the event in order to generate false evidence. The cockpit voice recorder tape carries Tokyo, KAL 007 and KAL 015 radio transmissions which were intercepted by stations not aboard the Korean airliner or which, in at least one instance, were outright forgeries. So was the CVR channel carrying cockpit chatter and cabin announcements.

Incident at Sakhallin's basic assertions are

1. US military aircraft were shot down by the Soviets over or near Sakhalin Island on the night of August 31, 1983 and
2. KAL 007 itself was destroyed some 400 miles to the south, off Honshu, for reasons and by means which remain to be established.

They rest on documentary evidence (photographic, oceanographic, physical, and electronic).

On the first point, Brun has in his possession

1. A copy of a Japanese Maritime Safety Agency report which mentions 54 tagged items of floating debris, not from the airliner, recovered off Sakhalin shortly after the disaster, and

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. Japanese press photographs of some of these tagged items which are clearly military and of US manufacture. They include a pilot's ejection seat from a high-performance aircraft and part of the wing flap from a US anti-radar aircraft, EF-111.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the second point, he has

1. Japanese Maritime Safety Agency statements indicating that floating debris from KAL 007 first showed up off Sakhalin only after NINE days following the disaster,
2. official oceanographic data indicating that this floating debris from the airliner must have come from a crash site far to the south of Sakhalin,
3. a copy of the relevant Air Traffic Control communications tapes given to the Japanese Diet by Premier Nakasone in 1985, and
4. computer print-outs of spectrographic and voice-print analysis done at the Iwatsu Electric Company Laboratory by its director Dr K Tsuboi, a world-class authority.

Items 3 and 4 above indicate that KAL 007 made radio transmissions as much as 45 minutes after the official story says that is was shot down. These transmissions were made on VHF. For them to have been recorded at Tokyo's Narita Airport, the airliner must at the time have been in line-of-site range of it, thus far to the south of Sakhalin.

Brun's reconstruction of what happened cites a mass of other evidence which is consistent with this hard core. What is astonishing is the mutual consistency of the information he has gathered from diverse sources independent of each other.

Incident at Sakhalin is essential reading for anyone interested in the dangers of clandestine intelligence operations, the risks of nuclear war run by the Reagan Administration, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the National Security Agency, (NSA), cover-ups of descreditable mistakes by government, plausibe deniability, the denigration of critics, and the manipulation of the media, US public opinion, international organizations, and the governments of other countries.

Written by John Keppel,

[Tango]

A další záhada.., co xakru vyváděl jen o pár let dřív jiný jihokorejský bulík u Murmansku?? Dokonce tam sedal nouzákem??
Aneb jak říká Miroslav Ivanov "Too many accidents.."!!

Anton.

Hele mash k tomu vic ??? A pproc jihokoreec a v Murmansku .. neni to ponekud daleko ???

To bylo někdy koncem 70. let a byl to 707 KAL, letící (tuším že) přes severné pól do Koreje (už nevím odkud). Taky se tehdy odchýlil od trasy a najednou se zjevil nad poloostrovem Kola a letěl tak odlišným kursem, že to bylo divné i cestujícím. Vzlétl proti němu Su-15 a poté, co Korejec nereagoval na výstražné výstřely, tak do něj pustil dávku z kanónů. Korejec nato nouzově sednul na nějaké zamrzlé jezero, na palubě byli 2 mrtví. Jo, a tohle bylo za denního světla.

[Anton]

Dodám jen zpřesnění..


"Soviets Ordered Korean Airliner Shot Down in 1978
A KAL 707 airliner heading to Seoul from Paris was forced down on a frozen lake 200 miles south of Murmansk after it strayed off course into Soviet airspace on April 21, 1978. During the forced landing, fire from a Soviet jetfighter killed two and wounded 13./Chosun Ilbo DB
MOSCOW ?- A Korean Airlines (KAL) Boeing 707 carrying 110 passengers and crew from Paris to Seoul that was forced to land in Murmansk after it went off course in 1978 came under missile fire from a Soviet jetfighter, it was revealed Tuesday. But the rockets missed their target and a major disaster was averted.

It was earlier believed that the aircraft was forced to land when Russian fighters fired warning shots, but in fact Soviet authorities gave the order to shoot the passenger jet down. The aircraft was able to avoid annihilation by banking just as the Su-15 was firing its missiles.

Russia's state-owned 1TV revealed the new facts in a documentary on the incident based on testimony from Vladimir Dmitriyev, then-commander of the Soviet PVO (air defense) unit in Murmansk, fighter pilot Anatoli Kerepov and others who took part in bringing down the Korean airliner.

Dmitriyev said he scrambled a fighter after he realized Soviet airspace had been violated. When the fighter pilot confirmed the plane as a civilian airliner, Dmitriyev several times ordered the pilot to instruct the KAL aircraft to land, in accordance with international practice. But after the fighter pilot reported no response from the KAL aircraft, he ordered it shot down.

SAM missile batteries and the jet fighter were ordered to attack but failed because the KAL aircraft was flying at low altitude. The Su-15 then launched a heat-seeking missile, which missed its target and exploded in midair, severely damaging the airliner's wing, he said. The KAL plane immediately performed an emergency landing on Imandra Lake, 200 miles south of Murmansk. The program also said when the KAL plane switched direction for Finland in a bid to escape, Soviet authorities moved to quickly shoot it down.

Vladimir Vasiliev of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Institute for U.S. and Canadian Studies said the KAL 707's violation of Soviet airspace was very similar to one that would take place in 1983, when KAL 007 was shot down over Sakhalin Island. He said they were probably spy missions used by the U.S. to test Soviet air defense and command capabilities.

KAL 707 left Paris on April 21, 1978 and entered Soviet airspace on its way to Alaska. Two were killed and 13 wounded in the incident, and the survivors returned to Korea four days later."


Doporučuji zvláště předposlední odstavec, je velmi výmluvný!!

Anton.

[Peter DeSnek]

... A teď k té EF-111A

Tohle je text Johna Keppela volně přístupný na netu:

KAL Flight 007
An Article by John Keppel, ...

TAk jsem si to ted prechroustal ...
A musim rici, ze to osvetluje mnoho a mnoho veci ...
Ale jeste vic otazniku zustava ...

Hlafne teda je tu jasny rozpor mezi oficialnim vysvetlenim a tim co se odehralo.
A jeste zajimavejsi jsou fakticke dukazy casoveho posunu ...
Pripadne technickych veci, ktere nesedi ...

Hlafne zaznamnik letu na 5ti kanalech misto 3 ..
Fa(c)kt bomba ...
Ale kdo sundal KAL007 ???

Vypada to na Hamiky samotne ...

A ta bitva ...
Nekde musi byt seriova cisla letounu a jejich ztrata ...
Neni mozne nekde na netu se tim zkusit prohrabat ???
Nekde Raven musel existovat ... vyrobni cislo a jeho histerie ...
Neni mozne aby se letoun vyparil ..
A pochybuji, ze by Hamici meli bordel f ucetnictvi ...
Nekde musi byt odepsany ...

To bylo někdy koncem 70. let a byl to 707 KAL, letící (tuším že) přes severné pól do Koreje (už nevím odkud). Taky se tehdy odchýlil od trasy a najednou se zjevil nad poloostrovem Kola a letěl tak odlišným kursem, že to bylo divné i cestujícím. Vzlétl proti němu Su-15 a poté, co Korejec nereagoval na výstražné výstřely, tak do něj pustil dávku z kanónů. Korejec nato nouzově sednul na nějaké zamrzlé jezero, na palubě byli 2 mrtví. Jo, a tohle bylo za denního světla.

Diky o tomhle incidentu jsem naprosto nic nevedel ...
A Kola je taky jasna ...
Pacto tam maji rusove rakety na USA ...

[VojtaH]

Sestřel nad Sachalinem - informace byla celkem srozumitelně zmíněna tuším v některé knize od Suvorova (zběhlého agenta GRU), který jasně řekl, že krátce předtím byl uvedn do provozu nový systém PVO na dálném východě a USA chtělo zjistit, co to umí.
Při narušení prostoru se samozřejmě zaktivizovaly všechny radary, zaměřovací stanoviště atd. a "systém se rozsvítil jak vánoční stromeček"

[Peter DeSnek]

Dodám jen zpřesnění...

Vladimir Vasiliev of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Institute for U.S. and Canadian Studies said the KAL 707's violation of Soviet airspace was very similar to one that would take place in 1983, when KAL 007 was shot down over Sakhalin Island. He said they were probably spy missions used by the U.S. to test Soviet air defense and command capabilities...

Myslim si, ze o to slo i f pripade KAL007 ...
Otazka je, co presne se odehralo ...
A kolik lidi, letadel, techniky u toho bylo ...

[Fishbed-J]

Ta 707 byl let KAL902
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
je tam i trasa letu....že prej nad kanadou si spletli znamínko při výpočtu kurzu...a tak obrátili o 180 a letěli nad Murmansk...
Holt maj Korejsky aerolinky smůlu na kufry řešený sovětskou PVO. Neletěl bych s nima:-))

A pak ještě jeden odkaz ke KAL 902. Pár fotek z místa přistání. Je tam pěkně vidět poškození:
http://englishrussia.com/?p=1961#more-1961

[Anton]

Můj čistě soukromý názor je, že Jihokorejci tehdy při vojenské diktatuře, která tam u nich panovala, si prostě vyslechli své americké pá.., pardon spojence a letěli kam bylo amíkům třeba.., konečně podobnost obou případů je víc než zarážející a náhodná. Pokud by nějdo namítal, že naši američtí pá..,( pardon, zase jsem se spletl) , přátelé se ke Korejcům chovali rovnoprávně(asi jako se chovají k nám..) , nechť si připomene okolnosti konce Korejské války a pochopí..

Anton.