F4U Birdcage Corsair -barva podvozku

[Martin F]

trochu jsem koukal do fotek a kromě obligátní bílé jsou některé části podvozku Corsairů (zejména těch raných - Birdcage) nabarveny nějakou tmavší barvou - není to barva kovu, není to ani spodní kamuflážní šedá, zřejmě to není ani svrchní kamuflážní barva.

nemáte někdo tušení jaká barva to mohla být?

[Martin Černý 'Černoch']

Udajně je to suříková základovka ,čili by měla být červenohnědá, nebo červená, někdy celou šachtu lehce přestříkali kamluflážní bílou barvu ,pak z toho leze růžová. U pozdějších verzí se už dávala klasická Zink Chromate Yellow nebo Green.
Aspoň tak jsem to pochopil z debat které se o tom v minulosti vedly.
Nějaký znalec US Navy to určitě upřesní.

Naposledy upravil Martin Černý 'Černoch' dne 18 říj 2007, 08:52, celkově upraveno 1

[Jakub Vilingr]

Martine viděl jsem něco jako červenohnědou suříkovku, takovej nějakej hnusnej odstín. Myslím že to je ta jiná barva o kterej mluvíš.

[Jakub Vilingr]

Kua zase mě předběch

[Jarda Rankl]

Tuhle věc velmi dobře zpracovali nymburáci ve své publikaci věnované zbarvení USN letadel. Ten suřík by měl sedět.

[Petr Bunda]

Někde mám stažený popis téhle podivně červené barvy, tzv. salmon z diskuze na Hyperscale. Jednalo se o kombinaci základní zinkchromátové žluté s červenou (Indian Red). Použití jenom na F4U-1. Snad mi paměť neklame. Večer sem zkusím umístit přepis z HS, bude-li to ještě aktuální.

[Jarda Rankl]

Já se pokusím najít tu publikaci. Určitě se to hodí (stejně jako ten Petrův přepis).

[Michael Skočil]

Projeď si tohle téma, tam to nějakej maník staví a má ty šachty tou špeciální barvou. http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/ind ... pic=117684

[Martin F]

díky všem za reakce, ale trochu si nerozumíme - nejde mi o barvu podvozkových šachet - ta byla "salmon", info tady už proběhlo v diskusi o Walshově mašině.

Mně zajímají podvozkové nohy

[Martin Nademlejnský]

a tady někde jsem ji taky viděl, teda spíš s ní nastříkanej vnitřek šachet. Udělal jsem to taky tak u svýho nočního Corsaira

[Martin Černý 'Černoch']

díky všem za reakce, ale trochu si nerozumíme - nejde mi o barvu podvozkových šachet - ta byla "salmon", info tady už proběhlo v diskusi o Walshově mašině.

Mně zajímají podvozkové nohy

Napsal jsi otázku trochu blbě, každej to pochopil že se ptáš na podvozkový šachty.

[PavelS]

díky všem za reakce, ale trochu si nerozumíme - nejde mi o barvu podvozkových šachet - ta byla "salmon", info tady už proběhlo v diskusi o Walshově mašině.

Mně zajímají podvozkové nohy

Napsal jsi otázku trochu blbě, každej to pochopil že se ptáš na podvozkový šachty.

No "podvozky" spíš chápu jako podvozkové nohy a jejich součásti - nevím jestli to napsal blbě

[Petr Bunda]

Tady je slíbený přepis z HS (s překladem si určitě poradíte ):
Co se týká podvozku, měl by být buď šedý nebo bílý. Disky kol by mohly být vedle šedé a bílé i modré. Nebyla by fotka na tu záhadnou barvu? Někdy může dojít ke zkreslení způsobenému zašpiněním a stínem...
Zajímavostí je používání tmavě zelené barvy v kokpitu u Birdcages. Proto se vnitřky jeví na čb fotkách jako černé. F4U-1 taky neměly často opěrky hlavy.

Sice v článku je o podvozku řečeno málo, ale třeba to pomůže někomu jinýmu

Salmon Corsair Monograph (long)November 3 2005 at 12:34 PM William Reece (Login WMReece1954)HyperScale Forumsfrom IP address 152.1.127.101

Salmon primer on Vought F4U-1 ‘Birdcage’ CorsairsThere has been a lot of discussion about the use of ‘Salmon’ colored primer on the F4U-1 Corsair since I posted several messages to the newsgroup rec.models.scale in mid 1996. There was mention of it made at the 1997 IPMS National Convention and Dana Bell mentioned it’s use in his article in FineScale Modeler. This is an attempt to further clarify and identify the use of ‘Salmon’ primer on these aircraft.Mr. Larry Webster who is associated with the New England Air Museum has kindly provided me with copies of the original Chance Vought Erection and Maintenance Instructions for the F4U-1 Corsair. This document lists all of the materials and procedures needed to build an F4U-1 Corsair.First in the Materials list of finishes for the F4U-1 is Lacquer-Dull Dark Green for use on the cockpit interior, USN Spec. AN-TT-L-51, quantity 1 1/2 gals. supplied by Du Pont. Next is listed Zinc Chromate Primer USN Specification AN-TT-P-656 supplied by Du Pont, quantity 15 gals. This would be the familiar yellow zinc chromate primer similar to FS 33481 or Testors small bottle Zinc Chromate. Also included in this listing is the requirement for 1 1/2 lbs. of Indian Red Paste, Tinting Medium USN Spec. TT-I-511 supplied by Valentine of New York. Indian Red is a dark red-brown color and is widely available as an artist oil paint sold in art supply stores and full line hobby shops. The Indian Red was to be prepared as follows: 2 oz. of Indian Red mixed in 2 gals of toluol or equivalent (AN-T-8b toluol substitute, similar to lacquer thinner) solvent. This mixture was to be used to reduce 1 gal. of zinc chromate package material (un-reduced zinc chromate primer). This mixture was known as TINTED PRIMER (my caps). This comes from pages 1106 and 1110 of the F4U-1 Corsair Erection and Maintenance Instructions.In section 7.2 of the E &M Instructions the raw aluminum for the construction of the Corsair was treated with a primer coat of zinc chromate. This coat known as the Shop Primer Coat was to serve as a first coat for the finishes to follow.In section 7.31 of section 7.3 Detail Protective Schedules: Class AA for Special Conditions or Material: magnesium alloy parts were to receive two coats of zinc chromate primer followed by two coats of TINTED PRIMER.In section 7.321 under section 7.32 Class A or 3 Coat Protection; the exterior metal surfaces were to receive one coat of primer and one or two coats of lacquer finish color depending on the metal used.Section 7.331 under section 7.33 Class B or Two Coat Protection: states that the ‘Interior of the cockpit from Station 129 to Station 186 and all parts contained therein except the instrument and control panels, control handles, etc. shall be one coat of primer on details or sub-assemblies followed by one coat of cockpit green lacquer after assembly. The interior surfaces of fuselage (except cockpit), wings, flaps, ailerons, tail surfaces and all parts contained within shall receive one coat primer on details or subassemblies followed by one coat TINTED PRIMER on assembly; light non-specular gray shall be the top coat on the wheel wells. The engine mount, front face of the firewall and all parts forward thereof shall receive one coat of primer and one coat of TINTED PRIMER except the interior of the engine and accessory compartment cowling and such areas which may be exposed to view. The second coat on the interior of the engine and accessory compartment cowling shall be light non-specular gray; areas exposed to view shall match the surrounding exterior color.’Section 14 describes the color system to be used on the Corsair. Section 14.1 deals with the exterior of the aircraft and section 14.4 states that the color of the cockpit shall be finished in cockpit green lacquer as noted in #7.331. The interior of the windshield frame shall be non-specular black.Sections 14.6 and 14.7 state that the cargo, baggage, fuselage fuel compartment and structural spaces be painted in TINTED ZINC CHROMATE PRIMER as stated in #7.331.Finally pages 1120 and 1126 of the E & M Instructions describe the use and preparation of tinted zinc chromate primer USN Spec. AN-TT-P-656. Local Process Specification Nos. 21-24-26-28-30-32 Application of Top Coats gives specific instructions on the preparation and application of the various paint coats used on the Corsair. Two methods are given for tinted zinc chromate. Method (a) involves the use of 2 oz. of aluminum paste per gallon of zinc chromate package material thinned 1 part primer to 1 1/2 parts thinner. Method (b) uses 2 oz.. Indian Red Paste per package gallon of zinc chromate primer and thinned 1 part primer to 2 parts thinner.What is the bottom line of all of this. Well for one F4U-1 Birdcage Corsairs had their interior areas except the wheelbays, engine cowling and accessory cowlings painted in a dull orange-brown tinted zinc chromate primer know as ‘Salmon’. The closest paint that I have found to the samples in my possesion is PollyScale Railroad, Southern Pacific Daylight Orange. The wheelbays, engine cowling and accessory cowlings were painted in Non-Specular Light Gray to match the underside of the aircraft. The cockpit was painted Du Pont Dull Dark Green. Photos of F4U-1s taken at the time show the cockpits as being a very dark color.Articles recovered from various F4U-1 crash sites confirm these instructions. Artifacts removed from F4U-1, BuNo 02368 which crashed near Exeter, Rhode Island on September 12, 1944 show good evidence of the use of ‘Salmon’ primer on the structural spaces. Other parts recovered from other crash sites show evidence of ‘Salmon’ on interior spaces and inside the wheelbays and tailwheel bay. Others show ‘Salmon’ underneath Non-Specular Light Gray in the wheelbay tops.Many thanks to Larry Webster for his time finding the documentation on this subject. Any errors or omissions are the sole responsibility of the author. Copyright 1998.William Reece,Fly Navy!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Corsair WheelbaysNovember 3 2005 at 2:20 PM William Reece (Login WMReece1954)HyperScale Forumsfrom IP address 152.1.127.101Response to QuestionGood question. The documentation clearly states the wheelbays should be nonspecular Light Gray but the only wrecks examined clearly had Salmon in the wheelbay. I (we) wanted the monograph to reflect the 'factory way' and the official way. I expect the inspector of Naval Aircraft at Vought let it pass with just the Salmon primer. I would not be at all surprised to learn some had Light Gray wheelbays.It also states the cockpit should be Dull Dark Green but again from the available evidence of wrecks the cockpits were flat black. Now you as a modeler have a choice. Just don't go with Interior Green in those areas.William
Lee Kolosna has replied (with title "I\'m conflicted"):William Reece is a friend of mine and a member of my modeling club. He and another friend of mine, Larry Webster, aircraft restorer for the New England and Quonset Air Museums, researched extensively interior colors for WWII US Naval aircraft. It was Larry who was contracted by Bill Bosworth for the painting directions of the Accurate Miniatures TBF Avenger. Larry is the "discoverer" of the use of Bronze Green, an event that I consider seminal in the understanding of the subject of aircraft interior colors. I remember the explosion of debate in 1996 on RMS when that kit first came out and what a stir the Bronze Green issue caused. Of course, time has proved Larry correct.Larry is also the discoverer of a reddish-orange primer in birdcage Corsairs, which he has dubbed "Salmon". I've seen it with my own eyes in pieces of preserved interior sections of wrecked Corsairs. Larry has even found a Corsair internal spare part, still in its original packing material, that is completely and undeniably painted Salmon. I held the part in my own hands with William Reece, Dana Bell, and Larry Webster standing by my side at my club's hosting of the 1998 IPMS Region 3 convention. Salmon is a real primer, not a theory as expounded by Tom Cleaver's statement in the review.William dug into Vought documents and found a recipe for the primer in the manufacturing specs. Larry's work with archeological digs of Corsair wrecks show that Salmon was used extensively in the birdcage Corsair and was replaced by Chromate Yellow and then Interior Green as the aircraft continued production for the next ten years. This is the best research that I know, and I believe it because of all the hard work that William and Larry have done to get it right. In William's summary, he states:__________________________________________________FU-1 Birdcage Corsair:Cockpit: Well this is tricky. The best evidence is black. Photos of F4U-1s taken at the time show the its as being a very dark color. The F4U-1 E & M manual calls for Dull Dark Green. Photos and some wrecks show flat black. A photo of 'Pappy" Boyington in Bruce Gamble's book, The Black Sheep, shows him sitting in a Birdcage with a black armor plate and upper seat. This a/c also has no headrest. All other areas of the F4U-1 Birdcage Corsair would normally be 'Salmon'. Salmon is a pale pinkish/brown primer made by mixing Indian Red pigment with Zinc Chromate Yellow. The closest Munsell match is 2.5 YR 6/8 or between FS 32276 and FS 32356. This color was applied to the whole F4U before the final camo finish. The landing gear bays were this color. The insides of the main gear doors were Light Gray. Sometimes this was only overspray over the Salmon. Note: there were canvas covers on the inner and outer wheel bays that were either Olive Drab or Light Gray. The closest paint that I have found to the Salmon samples in my obsession is Polly Scale Railroad, Southern Pacific Daylight Orange. The wheel bays, engine cowling and accessory cowlings were painted in Non-Specular Light Gray to match the underside of the aircraft. F4U-1A Corsair:Cockpit: FS 34151 Interior Green. All other areas of the F4U-1A were Zinc Chromate Yellow FS 33481. Early F4U-1A's may have been Salmon. Landing gear was Light Gray or Insignia White. Some a/c may have had Aluminum Lacquer landing gear after overhaul or field repaint. ________________________________________________
The landing gear, William says is Lt Gray or White. If it were me, I would go with what William says, as he has done the research.Yes, I have seen two. One was William's (of course) and one was done by Rick DeNatale. Not many modelers have taken to this research though, as I have judged a number of birdcage Corsairs (they are very popular) in various contests over the past six years and not one of them had Salmon wheel wells and cowling. Oh well.Lee K

Přílohy

[Martin F]

díky všem za reakce, ale trochu si nerozumíme - nejde mi o barvu podvozkových šachet - ta byla "salmon", info tady už proběhlo v diskusi o Walshově mašině.

Mně zajímají podvozkové nohy

Napsal jsi otázku trochu blbě, každej to pochopil že se ptáš na podvozkový šachty.

já jsem tu otázku blbě nenapsal - to ty sis ji blbě přečetl a spustil debatu na téma šachet...nebo snad netušíš co všechno se rozumí u letadla pod pojmem podvozek?

[Martin F]

to Petr Bunda

díky za info, i když v mém případě mnoho neřeší

mám na mysli konkrétní stroj v dvoubarevné kamufláži, fotka je v Ospreyi na esa na Corsairech. Podvozkové nohy jsou, včetně vnitřní strany disku velmi tmavé - netuším, jak se on salmon barva chová na čb materiálu, jinou barvu si tam nedovedu moc předstvit. Protože jiné části podvozku (tím nemyslím podovozkovou šachtu, Černochu) jsou bílé, tak zřejmě v polní dílně vyměnili samotné nohy - máte někdo tušení v jaké podobě byly do polních dílen dodávány náhradní díly?

- o stínech a zašpinění na fotografiích se bavit nemusíme, za minulých 15 let jsem zrekonstruoval podoby desítek letadel a o tomhle fakt vím docela dost.