Messerschmitt-Komplex Augsburg aneb 109 x Bf 109

[66misos]

Ak sa dobre pamatam, tak farby 81/82/83 neboli definovane presnym popisom odtiena, ani fyzickou vzorkou. Takze v ich pripade neslo ani tak o mutacie konkretnej znamej farby ako pri 76, ale skor o interpretacie/odhady oditenov podla jednotlivych vyrobcov. Tmava 81 bola od pripadu k pripadu raz do zelena, inde skor do hneda, potom zase do olivovej. No a 83, to je dalsia kapitola.
Millman: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234991782-rlm-81/&tab=comments#comment-2162382

[reserve_22]

Ja netvrdím, že to bolo na 100% 81/82.Inak masiny z JG300 si mysmim neboli 2 farebné ale strieknute len jednou tmavou farbou. Preto sa zdá kontrast "neviditeľný". Vždy sa kombinoval tmavá/svetlá. A medzi 81 a 82 nebol až taký malý kontrast.Mohlo by to byt vidieť na Hartmannovej G-10 na kryte motora a krytom pred čelným štítkom. Tam nieje kontrast taký výrazný. A farba pod kokpitom môže byť 70,je dosť tmava aj na 81ku.Moj názor

Ako ktore .
Pod kabinou je svertla farba a nizsie je tmava.Staci aj porovnat farby na kridle kde klapka je svetla a koren kridla tmavy - myslim foto co si vlozil Hartmann(:)

Přílohy

[Miloslav]

Ak sa dobre pamatam, tak farby 81/82/83 neboli definovane presnym popisom odtiena, ani fyzickou vzorkou. Takze v ich pripade neslo ani tak o mutacie konkretnej znamej farby ako pri 76, ale skor o interpretacie/odhady oditenov podla jednotlivych vyrobcov. Tmava 81 bola od pripadu k pripadu raz do zelena, inde skor do hneda, potom zase do olivovej. No a 83, to je dalsia kapitola.
Millman: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234991782-rlm-81/&tab=comments#comment-2162382

Vzorník s originálníma čipama, od výrobce barev, existuje.
Je divné, že obsahuje 83 jako zelenou.

Přílohy

[Miloslav]

Ako štandardná kombinácia 75/83 neexistuje na žiadnom dobovom vykrese len 74/75 a 81/82. Takže kombinácia 81/81 nie ale 81/82, áno.Aj 82 mala viacero odtieňov od svetlejsej po stredne zelenú. Môže sa zdať, že je v tom bordel preto, že nie všetky dokumenty sú známe a objavené. Niektoré sa ani nezachovali.

No bordel v tom udělal Uhlmann ( tím ho nerozporuji), stačí se pdívat sem.

PS. je zajímavé, že tady je potvrzené moje pojetí barev na 5F+12

Přílohy

[Jozeff66]

Milo, toto nieje origo vzornik.A existujú vzorky z vojny, vlastnia ich Japo.Jedna je označená 81,odtien zodpovedá hnedo fialovej a stredne zelenej s označením 82.RLM83 nieje nikde v origo dokumentoch popísaná ako Tmavá zelená farba len ako nijako bližšie nešpecifikovaná tmava farba. V minulosti sami autory po objavení Tmavo zelenej farby automaticky priradili nasledujúce číslo po 82, RLM83, bez toho aby na to mali dôkaz. Takto sa roky tradovalo a opisovalo o tm. zelenej ako o RLM83 Tmavá zelená. Podobne to bolo s mutáciu 76 ako RLM84, čo je blbosť. Pritom je to len mutácia 76.Aj navzájom 82 a 83 boli nejakú dobu prehodené. Za 82 bola považovaná Tmavá zelená a naopak. Take mam vedomosti z dostupnej literatúry.

[onysx]

Já myslel že ty barevné čipy jsou barvy namíchané dle originálních receptur a proto kniha obsahuje onen certifikát.

[Jozeff66]

Este jedna poznamka k RLM81.Rozny vyrobcovia ju len vizualne popisovali rozne podla toho aku vzorku od ministerstva RLM dostali a ako sa im javila.U Dorniera dokonca aj RLM82 popisovali ako Dunkelgrun,je to aj na oficialnej kamuflaznej scheme.
Messerschmitt - Braunviolet
Dornier - Dunkelgrun
Blom und Voss - Olivgrun
Pritom sa jedna o stale tu istu farbu,no najskor od ineho dodavatela.

[Jozeff66]

Já myslel že ty barevné čipy jsou barvy namíchané dle originálních receptur a proto kniha obsahuje onen certifikát.

Je to len marketingovy tah co sa tyka tohoto vzorkovnika.Vydavatel tych vzorkov J.Crandall si pozval M.Ullmanna aby mu napisal clanok o farbach do jeho knihy 2.dielu o Fw190D.Preco asi nech si kazdy domysli sam?

[66misos]

K vzorkovniku o Miloslava - v nicom nerozporuje to, co tu uz bolo napisane:
1. certifikat uvadza, ze uvedeny vyrobca farieb bol jednym z hlavnych dodavatelov farieb... Takze nie jedinym vylucnym a teda ide o interpretaciu farieb od tohto konkretneho vyrobcu,
2. cipy su namiesane podla receptur/merani/vyskumu originalnych farieb (z archivu daneho vyrobcu), takze vid bod. 1 vyssie.

Tu http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm je velmi dobre pojednanie o tom, ako sa tie farby vyvyjali a ako boli definovane, aj ked text je z 1997. Par zaujimavych poznamok:

- The RLM announced... introduction of camouflage colours 81 and 82 in place of 70 and 71 was announced in message GL/C-E 10 Nr.10585/43 (IVE) Az.82b 10 of 21st August 1943... 81 and 82 were all that was stated in this message. All published sources say that the colours were never official described with a colour name and paint chart...
- Colour 82 to be used with 70 (replacing 71)
- Colour 81 to be used with 71 (replacing 70)

- For colour 83, whose existence is acknowledged in this order, no official documents have been discovered which without a doubt identify RLM 83 with the colour name "Dunkelgrün"...

- (Sep 1944) Released by Blohm & Voss and approved by the RLM, designating the 'green' 81/82 camouflage scheme to be applied to the BV 155. The colours were designated as "Olivbraun 81" and "Hellguen 82",
- (Nov 1944)) Released by Focke-Wulf and approved by the RLM, designating the 'green' 81/82/76 camouflage scheme to be applied to the Ta 152 (C or H?). The colours were designated as "81" and "82", however, no descriptions of the colours were provided,
- (Nov 1944) Released by Dornier and approved by the RLM, D.Luft.T.2335 designated the 'green' 81/82/76 camouflage scheme to be applied to the Do 335A interceptor,
- paint chips...colour designations 81 and 82 is document/plan for the Fieseler 156 Storch. Smith and Creek (1994, p.247) claim that: The colours . . . are best described as a darker variation of American wartime Olive Drab and a light medium green not unlike the postwar American Field Green,
- Fw 190 D-9 "Black 12", WNr. 210079, which crashed from a low-level bird hit on its radiator while taking part in the January 1, 1945 "Bodenplatte" raid - The camouflage is a mottled on the fuselage, with the green predominating. The upper surfaces of the wings are a rather brighter green than is usual with German aircraft...,
- Me 262 A coded 9K+MK (M in white), WNr. 170273 of 1./KG 51 - The machine was camouflaged with the under surfaces in light blue, whilst the upper surfaces were in shades of bright green...
- (Feb 1945?) ...Me 262 document on camouflage colours described as "Braunviolett 81" and "Hellgrün 82" was published.

Podla vyssie uvedeneho to vyzera tak, vacsina vyrobcov interpretovala 81 ako tmavu zelenu, pripadne tmavu olivovozelenu. Iba Me pred koncom vojny interpretoval 81 ako hnedofialovu...

[onysx]

Asi špatný brejle

[Jozeff66]

Sme dost mimo temu,snad to Komodorovi a zucastnenym nevadi...

[Miloslav]

K vzorkovniku o Miloslava - v nicom nerozporuje to, co tu uz bolo napisane:
1. certifikat uvadza, ze uvedeny vyrobca farieb bol jednym z hlavnych dodavatelov farieb... Takze nie jedinym vylucnym a teda ide o interpretaciu farieb od tohto konkretneho vyrobcu,
2. cipy su namiesane podla receptur/merani/vyskumu originalnych farieb (z archivu daneho vyrobcu), takze vid bod. 1 vyssie.

Tu http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm je velmi dobre pojednanie o tom, ako sa tie farby vyvyjali a ako boli definovane, aj ked text je z 1997. Par zaujimavych poznamok:

- The RLM announced... introduction of camouflage colours 81 and 82 in place of 70 and 71 was announced in message GL/C-E 10 Nr.10585/43 (IVE) Az.82b 10 of 21st August 1943... 81 and 82 were all that was stated in this message. All published sources say that the colours were never official described with a colour name and paint chart...
- Colour 82 to be used with 70 (replacing 71)
- Colour 81 to be used with 71 (replacing 70)

- For colour 83, whose existence is acknowledged in this order, no official documents have been discovered which without a doubt identify RLM 83 with the colour name "Dunkelgrün"...

- (Sep 1944) Released by Blohm & Voss and approved by the RLM, designating the 'green' 81/82 camouflage scheme to be applied to the BV 155. The colours were designated as "Olivbraun 81" and "Hellguen 82",
- (Nov 1944)) Released by Focke-Wulf and approved by the RLM, designating the 'green' 81/82/76 camouflage scheme to be applied to the Ta 152 (C or H?). The colours were designated as "81" and "82", however, no descriptions of the colours were provided,
- (Nov 1944) Released by Dornier and approved by the RLM, D.Luft.T.2335 designated the 'green' 81/82/76 camouflage scheme to be applied to the Do 335A interceptor,
- paint chips...colour designations 81 and 82 is document/plan for the Fieseler 156 Storch. Smith and Creek (1994, p.247) claim that: The colours . . . are best described as a darker variation of American wartime Olive Drab and a light medium green not unlike the postwar American Field Green,
- Fw 190 D-9 "Black 12", WNr. 210079, which crashed from a low-level bird hit on its radiator while taking part in the January 1, 1945 "Bodenplatte" raid - The camouflage is a mottled on the fuselage, with the green predominating. The upper surfaces of the wings are a rather brighter green than is usual with German aircraft...,
- Me 262 A coded 9K+MK (M in white), WNr. 170273 of 1./KG 51 - The machine was camouflaged with the under surfaces in light blue, whilst the upper surfaces were in shades of bright green...
- (Feb 1945?) ...Me 262 document on camouflage colours described as "Braunviolett 81" and "Hellgrün 82" was published.

Podla vyssie uvedeneho to vyzera tak, vacsina vyrobcov interpretovala 81 ako tmavu zelenu, pripadne tmavu olivovozelenu. Iba Me pred koncom vojny interpretoval 81 ako hnedofialovu...

To co si sem vložil, potvrzuje moji domněnku, že na 109K-4 nemohly být barvy, tak jak to uvádí Uhlmann, tedy dvě verze RLM 81,
ale 81/82 tmavší varianta (uvedeno v tabulce pro 109K-4), Obdobně byla 82 tm, varianta použita s 75.
Pak by původní označení barev (Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft: 1935-1945) nebylo tak špatné, jen světlá zelená, označovaná, tehdy za 83, byla pouze mutací RLM 82.

[Jozeff66]

Je to dost mozne,Milo.Tiez si myslim,ze kombinacia 81/81 froznych odtienov je somarina.

[Miloslav]

Pravda je, že WK colors, XTRA colors jsko následovník a poté Aeromaster to tak měly udělané.
Aermaster vč. dvou mutací 81.
Pamatuji na dobu, kdy se světlá zelená popisovala jako mutace 82, pro Me 262.
No zkusím s tím káčko udělat. Všechny ty barvy mám.

[Jozeff66]

Niektore informacie su starsieho data,su chybne a doteraz sa niekde opakuju.A tie Aeromaster mam doteraz,su totalne mimo.Akurat 76 je ok ako svetlejsia varianta.

Naposledy upravil Jozeff66 dne 21 led 2021, 19:24, celkově upraveno 1